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Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap (Read 31331 times)
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #105 - 12/08/16 at 18:41:52
 
I once ran an Indy intake which is pretty much a copy of the HLR intake. It was a dog. My engine builder at the time told me it was but I said “make it work”. After 2-3 pounds of filler, the plenum was still WAY to large for my 390. I talked about the issue with Adkins and I sent him a Torker. He made it into an air-gap and removed the bumps for the inner bolts. No other work. Placed Torker on 390 and instantly knocked of close to two-tenths. and the front tire rise went from a few inches off the ground (very lazy acceleration curve) to 1-2 foot wheel stands in 1st gear and sometimes sizable in 2nd gear (and a few all the way through 3rd) and you better be ready to shift up NOW! This was my 1st SS engine which had 300 CFM -291 heads & high .700” lift roller cam.  
Conclusion was HLR or Indy is probably fine for large CID, nitrous, maybe really high RPM. Or any combo of the 3. Volume & flow in an intake manifold looks good on a graph. Sometimes that equates to faster acceleration. Sometimes not.  
This Victor 383, if I’m right, should fill the void in performance between the Torker (a 48 year old design) and the Indy. And obviously, it appears the AMC Victor EFI may be a much better choice for simplicity’s sake. Of course I also spent several years bending the ear of those at Edelbrock to make a 4150 Victor AMC. They don’t seem to see the market is there; to which I disagree.  
Now if I had to do it over again, I would cut the Victor 383 flanges off then cut the plenum North/south & east/west and weld it all together with a 4150 spacer and re-work the plenum. I thought I could do this without slicing across any runners but the curvature of the runners...threw me a curve!  undecided Never was any good with math...
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #106 - 12/12/16 at 18:04:42
 
Grin
 Smiley
was just curius....
Yes sir, one of the hardest things for me to learn was shifting with the front wheels in the air!-)  
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #107 - 01/19/17 at 06:39:22
 
Moving right along with my snail’s pace.... Grin
At least the intake sits on the engine now! There was not a flat piece of aluminum on this when I gave it to the shop! Twisted all over the place. Not even the carb flange would take a straight edge.  :’(  Bolt holes don’t even line up...well they kinda do but 3/4 of them are off .025” to .050” I’m guessing. But the runners line up to the head ports beautifully!  
I’t all straight now. Just need one more cut to compensate for the SCE .0625” intake gaskets. Then I can take it back to the porter and he can finish it up. Taking the family skiing and then I’ll get on a fast track towards assembling the engine.  
 



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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #108 - 02/07/17 at 07:26:51
 
Finally started assembling my new SS 390 engine this weekend.  
Got the crank in for the final install. Went to file fit all the rings. Bore is 4.236”. Top rings came out of the package with .019” gap and I filed to .024”. Then I went for the #2 rings and out of the package was .045”! Same with oil rings! There...now I had to wait for Monday to exchange the #2 & oil rings which I assume were mixed with another set. Luckily Total Seal is only about 8 miles from my home and that was fixed 1st thing Monday morning. Now the good news...as I planned on installing the pistons Sunday afternoon and work in the shop all day / night to get this done...I ended up watching the Super Bowl and that was worth the delay on the engine!  
I had a lot of real estate work to do today and tonight I finished up file fitting the remaining rings. Tomorrow I can install pistons.  
 
Crankshaft work was done by ShafTech in MI and EVERY spec was 100% right on. I ended up with .0028” on all main journals, .0018” on every rod journal and .005” on crank end-play.  
 
Thought I might share some fancy tools I bought. Yea, I know, not cheap. But I have to say it was almost a pleasure to file fit rings instead of using the wobbly hand grinder trying to get a parallel cut. All 8 sets of rings have the exact dimension with .024” top, .030” 2nd and .020” oil.  
 
I used the typical 1” down ring squaring tool and this new Goodson tool which I used below the 1” ring squaring tool; the ring is sandwiched in between tools and the the top tool is removed to measure the ring gap. https://www.goodson.com/ring-squaring-tools/
 
I got a “deal” on this Total Seal ring grinder. I don’t care if you build one engine every two years...you have to get this! Every gap is exactly what I want it. Both ends of the ring are exactly square to one another. Took hardly anytime to do the job. The wheel on the right is a rubber wheel for dressing the burrs once you are done filing. http://www.totalseal.com/tools-power-ring-filer.html
 
My home-made grafted Mopar 383 Victor to AMC Performer Air-Gap base is almost done. Sides were finished milled last week and now porter can finish his internal work. Will start with old Torker intake first so I can compare to my work.  
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« Last Edit: 02/07/17 at 19:06:45 by SuperStockAMX »  

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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #109 - 02/26/17 at 06:14:51
 
Manifold is done except for powder coating.  
 
Here are #8 cylinder head flow #’s with and without the intake manifold attached. This is a -993 head with 2.02” intake valves ported to NHRA specs on a 175cc intake runner. Sorry, I could not figure out how to post an cell spreadsheet.  

 
I did calculate the percentage of CFM loss. Starting backwards from .900” lift (cam is custom solid roller @ .850” gross lift on a .500” lobe lift, 55mm by Redline Racing Cams)
-1.31%
-2.15%
-2.65%
-3.14%
-3.54%
-7.6%
-6.8%
-4.9%
-6.9%
-3.6%
-1.98%
-10.66%
-0%
Average of the 13 data points: -4.25%
 
Notice textured surfaces:

 
I will load up remaining pictures later as PhotoBucket is not responding...
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #110 - 02/26/17 at 13:00:35
 
Excellent!!!  Do you know how he did the texturing?
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #111 - 02/27/17 at 04:10:35
 
No I don’t. Looks labor intensive!
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #112 - 02/27/17 at 04:20:15
 
More pics:

 

 

 

 
Torker vs. Grafted:

 
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #113 - 02/27/17 at 05:30:01
 
Now just need to purity it up a little. Will get a heat rejecting coating on it.  
 
A little wrap up here...at least until I get the grafted intake on my engine and down the track.  
Torker will be tried first as I have used it before on previous SS 390 engine.  
This new engine has a much better oil pan with kickout and a teflon crank scrapper. K-frame was modified for additional pan clearance.  
Slight changes in cylinder heads (new valves,valve angles and reduced diameter valve springs and retainers), and going from a Comp Cams solid roller to Redline Racing Cams which were very successful in my Stock Eliminator venture.  
Redline Racing Cam has .500” lobe lift, .850” gross lift & wide LSA.  
Comp Cam had wide LSA, just not as wide as the new cam, .445 lobe lift, .773 “ gross lift.  
Redline Racing Cam has larger duration numbers.
That’s as vague as I can get Smiley  
Old engine went 10.002 @ barely over 133 MPH. This was on 9” slicks and Stock Eliminator legal with (only) bolt-on traction devices (Cal-Track & AFCO DA shocks).
Have added a ARB since.  
 
I have WAY to much into this intake! A lot of labor rates were extended into milling operations. First in whittling down the two intake manifolds. Second in straightening out what becomes of a welded cast intake manifold which will twist and bow like nothing I have ever dealt with. On top of that, I run a seriously decked block and that adds to the amount that needs to be planned off the intake slabs.  
How much was the cost of building new runner divider walls? Porting? Texture? Flow? Would you believe he felt bad about charging me $200? He felt it took way to long and wanted to work with me on this. He’s 72 years old and has severe bronchial issues as a result of a lifetime of porting heads and intakes (and smoking). I had to literally force $600 on him as I could not look at that work and give him the $200 he insisted on. Hell, $600 was cheap.  
Something about Elmo Hodge. He was born in 1946. He’s a black man. Why do I mention this? Because he went through GM without college and retired at the GM Proving Grounds on a level that only senior engineers are today. He took advantage of every course GM offered for training and promotion but still lacked the degree go his cohorts. I forgot his exact status with GM but he was a “go-to” guy for any project (including developmental projects) GM dreamed of; at least on the mechanical side of things. He retired when GM closed the Proving Grounds and now is involved in his life-long dream of cylinder head and intake development working out of his 2-car garage. He has a Comp Eliminator Ken Keir Bantam Roadster with his own built SB2 which is “90 days from completion” for at least 10 years now. But family and customers always get in the way.  
I first met Elmo when I started bracket racing my street / strip ’71 Challenger at Phoenix Raceway Park in 1978 or 1979. He showed up with his ’69 Camaro which was a Modified Production SBC car with his home-built 302 and A883 adapted trans that I think he made into a 5-speed? I may need to confirm that but it was a helluva car and when I brought the car to the attention of several of the “elders” at the track, I was shocked at the expletives used against him and his beautiful car. Seems it had to way 3600#’s as I recall and when it ran 10.40’s, I made sure the elders took notice. It was impressive and I kept in touch with him over the years.  
When I built a Super Street ’70 AMX with a 451” BBM, Elmo did the cast iron heads, TM-6 intake and spec’ed the Ultradyne .625” solid roller. This was maybe 1990-1992? 2850# AMX and it would go 9.90’s at 133 MPH off the stop or 10.90’s @ 129-131 MPH on the stop. This with a 4150 carb. At the time, I had the third fastest S/ST MPH in Arizona with 100 less cubes, no Dominator carb and factory production heads against the top two that had BBC with aftermarket heads. The guy just knows his stuff and I’m honored to have his talents and many others on my side.  
Now of course that assumes this intake will work...
 
Tied up with so much now that trying to get time on the engine is difficult. Am now pulling the pistons and rods out as I go to sleep every night worried the #2 rings are to tight. I dropped in at Total Seal and the rings are .0005” to thick and the lands are .0005” to tight. At least that confirms what I could’t measure and now I will now hand sand the rings to the needed spec on plate glass.  
 
Son just made Eagle Scout this month, thought we were loosing my Mother-in-Law, and wife wants the Eagle Scout ceremony at our home before her mom misses it and it’s 03/17/2017 on the calendar plus demands with work, all 4 kids are in regional and state championships with swim this month.... So that is taking time away from race car. Will get it done ASAP x 3!
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #114 - 03/01/17 at 22:54:51
 
That's some pretty impressive work!  Hope it gets you some improvement ... but if not, it's been a good exercise and thanks for posting details along the way  Smiley
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #115 - 04/15/17 at 05:56:56
 
Some good news on development work. Taking one of my Victor EFI Intake Manifold with NO MODIFICATIONS other than the 4150 conversion, on a NHRA Super Stock 290 which is very much cutting edge (and fastest in class), against the heavily modified Torker Intake Manifold, The EFI produced an astounding +10 HP @ peak, and an average of 8 HP from 5800-8000 RPM! (Might have been 5300 RPM). There was a loss of 3# torque peak BUT a +5.5# torque average increase!  
This was on Barry Allens dyno in West Virginia.  
This was AS CAST RUNNERS & PLENUM.  
Adkins agreed his modified Torker was a minimum of 15 HP improved over a stock / as cast Torker.  
 
At that point, I told Adkins to port the EFI for my Super Stock 390 application.  
 
Ran into small issue on rings...need to slightly lap #2 on all 8. Came up with this from help with a friend today. Using 5” x 1/2” bar stock, chucked it up into his lathe and now have this neat little piston ring device for lapping onto wet 600 sand paper on glass. Took about 20 passes on it and ring fits perfect. I will do the other 7 tomorrow and finish assembly of the short block tomorrow.  
 

 
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #116 - 04/18/17 at 05:55:39
 
oops...edit above. That’s 5” “round stock” not “bar stock”.
 
Last Saturday “piston ported” the intake valve reliefs of the pistons. Took Sunday off for Easter. Tonight I fitted the wrist pins to the pistons and to the rods. De-burred and chamfered the rods. Tomorrow I will lap the rings.
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #117 - 05/18/17 at 01:48:15
 
Haven’t updated for awhile. Ran into problems, of all things, installing pistons in the block. Here’s what I wrote on another forum:
 
OMG...whatt a pain in the ass these trick skinny rings that are back cut to install! I pretty much figured out the problems but couldn’t figure a solution.  
The issues: .043/.043/3mm ring pack.  
Due to being back cut to .135” and .140” radial, in a stationary position installed on the pistons, the rings kind of flop around in the breeze. The trick is to get them squeezed into the lands (duh) and down into the cylinders without a ring popping out along the way. I have an odd bore of 4.236” so no standard ring compressors. So I was using the adjustable Total Seal with 5* taper. Just wasn’t working. I could get the oil rings in the bore but always fighting the #2 scraper ring. That ring will twist so easy and then will stick in the groove. I have gotten pretty good at re-setting that ring as it is very soft metal.  
Never an issue with #1 ring as it is tool steel.  
Upon consulting with a professional engine builder, was told I needed the K&D ring compressor; the one with the pliers and assorted sizes of rings in a kit. So I bought that. The problem there is you have to squeeze the heck out of the pliers, keep the compressor flush with the block and WHAM! with your hammer handle to quickly discharge the piston from compressor to cylinder. Should be easy...
I installed 3 pistons and they went in like they’re supposed to. The other FIVE!!!! aargh....the bottom oil rail popped out and got mangled all to crap. If anybody’s laughing their are off...that’s ok.
So I slink back to Keith at Total Seal. I tell him “look, last engines I built had the trick 1/16” rings and I never built an engine with back cut rings much less skinny .043” rings” I explain I have the problems figured out but am at a loss on the solution and yes, I realize racers and builders all over the world do not have this problem!!!
He actually agreed with me; the thin rings can be a bear, and the back cut ads more difficulty to the issue. I am glad I’m not alone! So he offers me this advice...”we need to build you a tapered ring compressor to your 4.236” bore and you CAN NOT use a 5* taper, it has to be 2* taper".  
"Whoa! That’s the solution I say....” Kinda wish I would have heard this many moons ago but they had it to me the next day (last Tuesday). So I have the part I think I need and I should be able to use my thumbs and not a hammer; like I’ve always done.  
 
With a 5* taper, it allows the ring to twist on the way down. Especially the #2 ring as it’s super sensitive and it hangs out of the land quite a bit.  
Also, the top of the pistons are .050” smaller OD than the skirt measurement point. So think about the piston skirt sliding through that tool and then the clearances between the piston and the tool increase!  
It’s because of this I need a 2* taper. Make sense?
 
Finally! Nothing like having the right tool for the job! Piece of cake to install pistons into the block. There was a chip on one of the #2 rings that I didn’t catch so I’ll get another in the morning and have the last piston installed before noon.  
Next: Fit crank scraper.
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« Last Edit: 05/18/17 at 03:03:12 by SuperStockAMX »  

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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #118 - 05/18/17 at 12:17:23
 
The 2 degree installer is taller than the 5 degree?
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Re: Grafting Mopar Victor 383 to AMC RPM Air-Gap
Reply #119 - 05/18/17 at 14:32:33
 
Same height just better entry angle.
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